Miro VS Notion: Which Tool is Better for Visual Collaboration?

Mikael Hugg:
Me and Arthur, we've been well discussing a lot about comparing notion versus a lot of tools and I haven't been using notion that much. Obviously it has been part of some someone, but not too much. Instead, I, I u usually use always Miro. So, so that's why, you know, we just kind of naturally, we went straight there that, you know, when we were comparing Miro against Notion and I was like, well, Miro is obviously better, so, so , let's do that.

Artem Daniliants:
We have reached an impasse and I think I, I use Mirror as well sometimes for some of the stuff that I do. But for like knowledge collection, for idea collection, I use Notion, and I'm sure Mikael uses Miro for also like ideas like idea visualization and so, So we thought that hey it'll be pretty awesome to maybe go over the bot tools and to see how they compare and also what distinct features do they have. Because I think Notion is a more of a structured like data storage while Mirror is very like free and very like freeform, where you can decide how you want to structure your. , and I think they're very different tools, but you can use them for the same purpose. For example, idea collection. Just like before maybe you start and then I will have a little bit of a time for rebuttal.

Mikael Hugg:
Absolutely. So I happen to have it already open here and while I'm using the premium version of, of Mira. I, it's, it's convenient when you have more things to do in there. You can use the free version. I think they, they, at least they used to have this offer of three boards for free or something. But yeah. Well, I, I have a ton. So, so you, I need to have the premium version. And by the way, Mira is not sponsoring this in any way. So, so, I'll just show it because I, I like it anyway. You know, you can do a lot of stuff with Miro. You can just like you can do sticky notes if, if you, if you like, you know, it's it's a, I think in, in best ways, this is a collaboration tool where you can invite a lot of team members or, or, you know, observers and you guys can just, you know Brainstorm together, make different kind of well, let, let's say that I'll, I'll do like this sticking out stuff and then I want to say like, okay, these guys are tied together because, you know, it kind of makes sense.

And then I would have the, you know, blue ones. And this also goes here, so you can easily make these kind of wire frames, but they're just more. But the way I usually just do it is that I take the writing tool and let's put it a little smaller and then like typing something. And then I know that, you know, if that happen, you know, let's say that this is actually good when you're trying to figure out if you're, for example, coding or, or leading the coding projects, then you can do this.

Like if and l. So well, this is not just, I'm just like showing it, but the thing is that you just, you know, throw something, something happens and then so on, and, and now you just keep doing this on and on. I, I like to do it like this. It's not, it's not very beautiful, but it's just convenient. But then you can also use, they have this let's see. I haven't been, For so long they have the Miro mind map, which is very convenient. So, so then you can make this more beautiful version of, of, you know, so you just, you know, type here things and, and so it goes, you can also do a lot of mockups. They are not the most beautiful ones either, but it's.

It's pretty, pretty good one. Just the show, like how, how things are going. I'm just trying. I don't use it so that much. So need to, I just, well, it's somewhere here. Oh, wireframe Library. I think it's this one. Yeah. So you can click browser, you can fill there whatever you want. Then, you know, tablets and et cetera. But the thing is that you can also, let's say that I want to. I'm gonna use my own website, so, so I have a link and then I, I want to present it part of the project. So I'll just take the link and I'll just, I can just drop it and it creates this little snippet like this. So now you can, so now you can use this in part of your, your.

Whatever you're creating, and you can, same way, you know, draw stuff here and let's say that I want to create a box which I could use for writing stuff in so I can just, you know, combine all these things together and then maybe I want to use logo. To clarify things. So then I just go to I can finder and then we can write here.

Let's say let's say TikTok. Do they have logo already? Sure. Yeah. So then you have a different kind of TikTok logos you can use, and you're gonna use them in part of your design, whatever you're creating here. Overall, this is very convenient for so many things. I usually, when I have my keynote sp speak engagements and when I'm, you know, trying to figure out what kind of talk I'm gonna have, then I'm gonna have, I'll do it like this.

I'm gonna write here the first, you know, the, the big topic. So it's this. and then I'm gonna, you know, split it into . Okay. Sad. And then I'm just gonna go like this, and then I know that it's gonna, this gonna take like 10 minutes, so then I know that I'm gonna split it to this topic and this topic and, and when I do it like that, it's very easy for me to understand. What I gonna say, how long it's gonna take, and then I can just modify and, and write bullet points or whatever I want here. So yeah, you can use in various ways.

Artem Daniliants:
Yeah. And I think with the Miro, there is no specific structure and there is a lot of tools for presentation, right? You can start a timer, you can yeah. Send videos, you can export frames as pdf. So I, I think it's, it's very good when you want like a, just a, like a unlimited canvas space to have your ideas in a visual. Exactly. I actually, I, I actually started to use Murro as a alternative to PowerPoint, and every time that I do trainings mm, I actually start with an empty canvas, and then I talk about the terms and methodologies and I try to show concepts in a mural by, you know, creating it in real. and people seem to be more engaged because, you know, it's not a PowerPoint, you know, things are happening, they're paying attention. Cuz you know, I'm drawing, I'm making connections and I think for that kind of stuff, I agree Miro is a really, really interesting alternative to other tools. Yeah. And I think

Miro also works on works also as like a, like a way for people. Participate in a meeting or a training, and you don't have to share your screen because if they enter and they see the same board that you are sharing. You will be able, they will be able to see your mouse cursor and Oh yeah. Can force as a host, everybody to follow you. So basically you don't have to share the screen. They just open the link and then they hear your voice and they will be able to see what you are showing and they will be able to see that part of the mural board that you are, you are working on. So I think there's a lot of collaboration functionality.

Mikael Hugg:
Exactly. Yeah. That's, that's how it, how it works. Yeah, this is best for collaboration in many parts. And I think I just saw in Microsoft teams that they, they had this Miro like a featured tool that you can use with, with teams. I think you can also use with Google. I don't, I don't remember, but I haven't used it with there. But I have this feeling that they also.

Artem Daniliants:
Yeah, I think Miro can be easily embedded in many different services and I will also show maybe that in the notion as well. I think it can be easily connected to other tools. You are correct. I think there is functionality in Slack already, I think in teams. Yeah. Now So you can open easily Miro boards and you can see previews and what so ever. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. So I think that's, that's pretty cool. But one thing that I don't like about Miro is, Once you actually have a lot of information, because there is no structure it's very hard to go back. So if you created like a lot of material and mirror over like 10 years or something, it's very hard to find things and it's very hard to make use of that data in a sense.

So it's very. As a collaboration, but it's very bad in my opinion as a document manager and some people I know. One of my customers actually does sprint planning in Miro, so they have Sprint planning board and Miro and everybody connects and so forth. But, Once you have, you know, like 15 people working on one board, you have like, you know, 400 stickers and everything. It's kind of just becomes a mess. Yeah. Because you can't use filtering functionality as well. You can't find things as well. You can't, it, it becomes very tedious. So people try to use murro for things that I think it's not optimized for such, as I mentioned, you know, like document management. I think for that it's not very good. And this is where I use personal notion, you, you shouldn't use it

Mikael Hugg:
So that it's only like one board and where 15 people collaborates all the time for, for six months. I, I can't see that. It, it works, it the way I use with my, my team, we, we create very small like very small documents. We usually just use it for some parts of the project, so we are not including everything there because you are right.

There's no filtering tool and I think it's not even meant to be used like that. Maybe that's the reason why they don't have. Miro is launching a lot of new. Features and upgrades all the time and that, that ha I haven't seen a ne never, it's gonna a filtering option there. So I, I think it's not the correct way to use. Obviously everybody can use the way they want, but that is very inconvenience when you have two big of a project, what they are building. I think you can link different boards to one board, I think so I have. But I, I have a feeling that you can do it. So then maybe you have one big, huge project and then you link other boards that are like sub boards. So then you know that this is part of that and that. Yeah.

Artem Daniliants:
Yeah. So the way that I think about Miro, it's like, you know, in the classroom you have the whiteboard, right? And you draw there, you have equations, whatever that is. Yeah. But when it's time to store the. You never store the data on a whiteboard, right? You kind of store it in a notebook or in a book, or in, obviously, yeah, in a computer document. So for me personally, I think. Where Mirror Excels is probably like real time corporation, quick one, also presentation software as a way to present. For example, you know, trainings, keynote speeches, that good stuff, it, it might work for that pretty well. But for me personally, I tend to use Notion for everything else that I want to store for long period of. And maybe this is a good segue for me to tell you a little bit how I use Notion and how it, you know, makes a lot of sense for me. So maybe I can share my screen and give you guys a little bit of a preview of how I use Notion.

And so Notion in my opinion is is kind of like a ar, like a Swiss Army knife. I mean, it has 1 million different feature. and you will find features pretty much for everybody, right? So if you are a newbie and you just want to, you know, I don't know, create documents, store your ideas, great. But Notion also has a full featured database engine built in. So if you want to have very structured data, very rigid s. You can do. That Notion has also nowadays AI functionality so that you can use that to create documents quicker. There is a lot of, a lot of things you can do and it would take maybe, you know, five hours to go through all the features that Notion offers.

But I will tell you how I use it myself so that you can see if it's useful for you and. Yeah, just hopefully we find it useful. Safe. So basically in, in notion you have workspaces, right? So you can be a member of multiple workspaces. You could have your own personal workspace, you could have workspace with your company and company workspace could could have multiple members while your private workspace could be only available. So what I have, for example, in my own private workspace, I have archived for all the old style that I don't need anymore, but I want to keep around. I have second brain, that is where I have contracts. You have the competitor research . Yes. I have that as well. That as well, that as well. I have personal, for my personal stuff, like my trips and all of.

I have work, and work is Monday plannings. I have projects, sales, invoicing, milestones, videos, strategic planning and so forth. And then I have inbox where I put everything that I don't know where it should go first. So it's like kind of my like inbox and notion in the end is a document tool. Basically every single page or every single piece is kind of like a. Document can be part of the database or it can be a simple page. And here, if you look at notion you can create a simple page that goes, for example, under Second Brain, right? And I'll call it test, right? You can give it any name you want. You can give it an icon, right? So for example, big Brain, you can add cover to it to make it more interesting from the perspective of like visual appeal, right? So I could type here for example, I dunno. Malaysia, well that's

Mikael Hugg:
Nice. So let's keep

Artem Daniliants:
The earth Yeah, that, oh, we can keep it. So basically you can put any image here as you want and then you can start creating the document. What I love about Notion is that nowadays they also incorporated ChatGPT, like from functionality here. So if you are staring in a blank at the blank page, you can just press. . And now you can tell AI to write something for you. So you can say create, okay, a sprint planning document skeleton for marketing company. And then you presser, right? And then AI will start writing. And here it is basically all done. If you want to make it longer, you can choose that. You can try. To get different different output. If you are happy, you are happy, you can also,

Mikael Hugg:
Is there there, like is it, is it, I mean is it Chippy the three that is behind it or?

Artem Daniliants:
Yeah. I think it's powered by open ai, which is a create who are creator of charging pt. So I think this personality that is technology. Yeah, I think this functionality is really, really useful. You can use it in many different ways. As I mentioned it, just enough for you to just press space and then you have, you know, different options here. This is like ready made prompts or you could have, for example, like create a to-do list for market entry to Asia for a software company. Focus on social media. Right? So again, if you know charge G P T, you know that this is nothing really like amazing. This is the same output you would get probably from charge G P T. Yeah. But the wonderful part is because it's part of the document management tool that Notion provides. It's pretty, pretty damn awesome. Yeah. And notion supports nested documents, so you can just highlight maybe a word. and you can turn it, for example, into a page, and now it became a page. And so what, what is page, what does it mean that doesn't it page is just a, yeah. Page is just a structure basically. So if you think about it, every single page can have some pages, right? So if you think about it, it's like a PA page can function also as a directory. So you can have other pages. So that, that's like really useful. Basically nested pages and you can share documents to the web basically, and you can allow people to edit, comment, all that good stuff. So that sharing functionality is great.

What I actually use. Notion four is I create proposals in notion itself, which is pretty damn awesome because you could, you could just use ai. You could say like, Hey, create proposal text or I don't know, word press landing page based on. Elementor, which is a horrible idea, by the way, guys. Yeah. You know, if you are using, you shouldn't use WordPress. Don't, yeah. Don't go using Elementor. But I just wanted to show that. It also creates, this is the wonderful part, if you do this yourself in chat, g p t, it will not create headings and so forth, but here the AI knows how to create, you know, formatted proper formatting for you. So you have bullet points, you have title. And basically nice. The creation of document is very easy. You just you know, type slash for comments. And then here you could, for example, choose table of contents. For example, here, table of contents, boom. And now automatically you have table of contents and you can just go export.

And export it to, for example, pdf. If it's a proposal, you probably want pdf. If you want markdown, you can actually export it as a markdown document so that it later can be edited in markdown editors, or it can be changed like transformed into any other format such as PDF or word document. , and you can ambi stuff here easily. So if you have like a mirror board you want to ambi, you can do that as well. You just you just type slash and then embed. And here by default, it supports many different softwares. And here you have a mirror, for example. So now if I pasted a mirror board here, yeah. So now if I pasted a mirror board, for example, miro.com. And then if I paste well, I think I'm logged in here. Miro has a desktop version of their, of their software as well. So here, for example of processes, this is one document I created for our team in order to like describe our internal processes a little bit better. So here you just create a board link and then you go here and just click am.

And now basically what will happen is Miro document will be interactive document will be part of the document in Miro and you can actually see Miro board itself. Right. And you can interact with it. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, so, and you can expand it, you know, you can make it so that it's really, you know, it's really proper. And this is what I really love about Notion. Notion works the best and I'm not gonna go into database and all of that. If you like notion or you think this is cool, just Google Notion and you will see like 1 million different tutorials. Mm-hmm. . Notion works really well as a content hub. So if you want to bring there all the content from different places, and because they have unlimited storage space, if you are paying for notion, you can actually put there your videos. For example, I have here, I think video videos, video as here we go. So for example I have videos that I store. So these videos are stored at Notion, notion Servers at, at no additional cost for me, and I can download them if I want to. But I can also play them directly from Notion. So it works really well as a place to put everything that you have Google Documents, you can put them here, you can abid Mirror, you can right have videos.

And so. And then what I also like is you just press and hold comment and you press K and now you have very easy way to just see your documents. Find your documents. So I can just type like Monday planning for example, and boom, here is my document. I press it again and I go to test book. This is the document that I just looked. it's very, very easy. And from that perspective I think it's a killer, killer service and like a really good software. The only downside that I see is that there is no offline functionality, if I remember correctly. Mm-hmm. So it means if you are not connected, you don't have access to all of your documents, which is very unfortunate, but that is very,

Mikael Hugg:
That's very rare that Yeah. Yeah. Let's, you would be awful.

Artem Daniliants:
You travel a lot and spend a lot of time in the plane, , I mean, yeah. Or you have

Mikael Hugg:
Be connection. You get wifi on planes nowadays, so that is not a problem either. You know, when, when we used to live in Mexico, we were flying a lot and those planes, at least they, you know, we used Love Tanza. They always had the wifi and it was actually pretty decent wifi, so it, it was not super fast, but it's definitely something that you can. If you're working with notion, because obviously this is not, most likely, it's not using too much of bandwidth. So, you know, you, you don't need much of you don't need, you don't need a fast wifi to do it. And now you know people are, yeah, of course getting the Sterling all on on, you know, more and more so you can get wifi to remote places. , you propose this idea. Because, you know, yeah. , once again, you are clear win winner. So my tools are, they usually always suck when we are comparing to your No, no, no, no. And I have to, I have to take, I have to start using Notion immediately. This is I don't know why I haven't been, I think I, I start using Notion way back, like years back. Years ago. And then it was it was kinda like a skeleton compared to what it is now. And I noticed from some kind of, I, I think I saw an ad from Notion lately that they said they have the ai.

And I was like, all right, cool. But. They didn't explain it much like what it, what it really means that they have AI there. And I've been using jeti, PZ for long, and then I've been using a lot of other ais for the past two, three years. So, so I was like, okay, like everybody's putting AI in it, so doesn't make, but now that I see it, but, and it's, it's the j BT trade knowledge there. Yeah. Kind of makes the whole chat g p t usage obsolete in in that, in, in many ways.

Artem Daniliants:
Yeah. I mean, they still use chat g p T underneath, right? Or something similar to it. But what I like is that the, the way that they integrated this functionality into notion seems very seamless and very easy, and you can create very quick document. and that makes just a lot of sense, right? If you want to summarize something, notion can do sum summaries. So you can just for example, create summary from the from this page, and now it will go through all the page and create a short summary of everything you have written. Yeah. That's with this stuff. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you, for example, You know, like a memo of a meeting or something, or a long document, you can create a very, very quick.

Mikael Hugg:
Okay, very quick. Okay. What, what, what if you have a video, what, what if you have a, like a YouTube video or you wanna get a samura summarized version of it, like a text format? Can you just, I,

Artem Daniliants:
I, no, I don't, I don't think you can do it. The only way to do it is if you. Somehow create a transcript of a video. And this is maybe something we could talk at another time. But for example, if you use Descript descript is a very, very good software. Oh, it's, for example, download, use YouTube video and then put it in descript, create transcription file imported into notion, and then ask Ka to summarize so that Yeah, yeah, you can do it that way. Yeah, this, this, but it's not as seamless is fantastic. That, that's pretty much it. And I like it that we talk about different tools and you like simple tools that are minimalistic. Maybe in a way, I'm, I'm a simple person. I'm, I'm more visual. Well, not, not really. I just think you, you are more creative and because I have a software, you know, engineer background well mm-hmm. software developer back. A little bit, at least. I kind of like things, you know, in a structure, neat pack, nice way, you know, so that mm-hmm. . Yeah. So that I have ability to use.

Mikael Hugg:
Yeah. By, can you draw there, can you, can you draw there or is it just like that tech stuff? Or can you also draw? I think, can you make wire

Artem Daniliants:
Frames? I think you can. I think you can draw, if I remember correctly, there was wire, wire.

Mikael Hugg:
A block for that. Wire wireframes or something like, I don't

Artem Daniliants:
Think wire frames. I think, I think you have to embed something. Well,

Mikael Hugg:
Yeah, I'm gonna, you, you can, you can embed Mira, so there you go. Then Yeah, for me, I have to say that I usually like to promote myself as winner, but in this case, I gotta say that you want like there's not even question about it. And for me, why I. This stuff is that when you show that you have the AI here, and now that I saw it in action, I was like, yeah, because we're using chat like every day and we have the, yeah, we just got the plus. So, so we're now in the paid plan. And it's, it's so convenient. But yeah, so, so you have the ai, but then also you show that you can embed mirror and then you can even modify, you can see, and you know, that's. Yeah, that blew me away. And yeah, now I'm, I have to actually go and by the mirror immediately. If you have a, if you have a like a referral code, give me that one. And no, I,

Artem Daniliants:
I don't think from there, I don't, I don't think I have a referral code, but just get a free version of notion, you know, see what you like and remember. AI functionality is locked to a paid plan, if I remember correctly, Uhhuh, or maybe you can actually test it with pre, but anyway, notion is like five bucks a month, like five bucks

Mikael Hugg:
Nuts. Oh

Artem Daniliants:
Yeah.

Mikael Hugg:
Yeah. That is crazy. This is think is is that is the thing. What I really like nowadays, and this is something that you know, now I, I need to compare this to finish inbox. Eight bucks. Eight. Well, eight. Nothing. It's nothing. Yeah. Yeah. So, and this is what I, what I just wanted to say that now that I'm comparing to finish startups and finish technology scene what, what, you know, Finn companies need to take more care of is, is try to compete against this. They need, they need to make these crazy deals and crazy offers that no one can keep nobody can compete against. Because when you're doing like notion that this is like, hey, eight bucks and you get ai, you get everything there like full of features, it's really hard to compete against those when you only have like a couple of features and then you are charging one. Bucks a month, you know, this kind of stuff. So I'm not talking about the Finnish companies because I'm from Finland, but this is actually this applies to all of the smaller countries that are building their own startups and they're putting money on startups.

Scene is that this is the competition where you are competing against. So if you are charging more, like way more, I understand in, in the financial part that they, it's very hard to run. Having, you know, more money coming in. But the thing is that the consumers are always choosing the best option. And, and so then you need to rethink the whole, whole structure. That if you can't offer that kind of quality with that money, then you have to rethink your, your uh, money, money flow. Okay. That's another topic I just wanted to say. I'm so, so excited. I'm pumped on ocean. I didn't know that this is going there. I was like little low energy when we started because I was thinking like, notion is, you know, that sounds so, so damn boring. But yeah, shit, you know, this is uh, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. This is a rollercoaster.

Artem Daniliants:
Yeah, it's pretty good. It's good to be the winner once in a while. So yeah, definitely I think that Well, have you been winning like all of

Mikael Hugg:
Our stuff? I think I, I, no, it depends. I always declare myself winner when, when we start and then you just, you know what? You watch the table with me.

Artem Daniliants:
I think I think we talk about different tools and we use them in different ways, so, you know, we joke a little bit about winner and so forth, but yeah, notion is definitely, A tool that works as a archive for all your documents. And it, it's kind of like a, I call it like notion is my brain dump. So when I have something in my head, if I, for example, you know, have my tool to do Yeah. NI is, that's for me all my netbook. Yeah. Viro is for

Mikael Hugg:
Me that, so I brain dumb

Artem Daniliants:
Stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But, but in Miro, the problem is, If you have multiple boards, I don't think you can easily search information from multiple boards and it becomes kind of like a hassle a little bit. Yeah. Once you, I don't, I,

Mikael Hugg:
I don't work like that. Yeah. I don't work like that though. Yeah. You know, I don't, I don't need to. Well, what do you do? Search stuff.

Artem Daniliants:
Huh? What, what, how do you do, like, how do you find information later when you need it like two weeks later?

Mikael Hugg:
Well, you know, that's the thing. I don't, I don't work anything like that. I don't need to remember things from two weeks. I actually remember in my brain, and then I, I have this, it's not a picture memory. I can't say that I, I had that, but I have a very good visual memory. So when I. When I have a lot of boards, I just know that it's somewhere there, you know, in that section. It's there, and then I just know where to go. And that is also a gift. But then it's also a curse just because when I have like our employees and freelancers, they don't, obviously, they can't get my, they can access to my friends, so they, they don't know. So then I always need to be the one who's like, okay, I'm.

Gonna, you know, get you that link, hold on. And they're gonna, you know, send it to chat or whatever. So, so I can't outsource that stuff away. And obviously it's, it's taking more and more time, but yeah, I don't, I don't need the filtering tool. I don't need to, I never, I, I've been using Microsoft teams with our clients a lot and. everybody else is, they are always, you know, fetching their data from, you know, whatever, where, where the data is located. And for me, that's my, my brain start, stop working. It's, for me, it's super in difficult to find anything like that. But when I see them as, as pictures or visual objects, I see them Mac boards, it's super easy to find anything. Super easy. Yeah.

Artem Daniliants:
Yeah. But again, it, it's, it's hard to scale this way of storing information in like once the organization start growing, you know, you, you can't really do that. But Yeah, I know, I know. I do think. I do think that ability to embed Murro in the documents is a really good functionality cuz then Oh, for sure you can start with the mural board. You can, you know, bring it to Notion and then using ai you could summarize, you know, you could create easily the document or mm-hmm. , you know, the funny part. What you can actually do with Notion is that you can, for example, transcribe your own voice in Mac, for example. Yeah. So you can just click transcribe and you know, in Mac for example, you can create text using your speech and then you can for sure ask AI to kind go through the text, proofread it, you know, apply for modding and so forth. So I think there is a lot of,

Mikael Hugg:
As the elder, yeah. Ah, because I have all these like voice memo. And yeah, that is that is hard because I have a lot of voice memos on my neck you know, iPhone and all that. And no way I can go back and see what's going on there. So I know when I'm recording it, I know that this is useless. I never go back. I would love to, but just skipping the timelines and like with which one I, I, because I also. Naming my recording. So they're always like, untitled, untitled something. And then there's just the dates. And now I just try to go back like, oh, was it like six months ago, ? I was thinking this, this, and that. And then I'm just skipping and hate it. So it Well, if you can also embed that they're, ah, shit. Yeah, that's, that's a.

Artem Daniliants:
Yeah, for sure, for sure. So this time I think the notion can be declared a winner since it can be incorporated with Miros. And I think they're very different tools, but they can be combined and I think they're the strongest when combined together.

Mikael Hugg:
Oh yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, exactly. When you, when you are using stack off apps, like you are having, you're, you're having Miro, then you're gonna have trailer you. I think you can embed their HubSpot. I, I, I think you can put a lot of stuff there, I suppose. So

Artem Daniliants:
Maybe, maybe.

Mikael Hugg:
Well at least with SAP you can for sure. You can add whatever to, to notion. So, yeah, so if you're using a stack of apps, and most likely you are nowadays everybody just needs to use so many different tools, all the. Now I, I clearly see that notion would actually be very beneficial for, for our company as well. And, and you know, they, they, I think they're a little under, like undervalued or underestimated,

Artem Daniliants:
As a, as a tool? No, I, I, I, I don't think so because because there is so much buzz about notion and Notion has. Raising money like nobody's business. They bought Kron as you know, the calendar that I recommended at some point. Oh, Nosha bought that one. Yeah. Notion Bought is awesome. Yeah. And they have been now investing in ai, so they were able to roll that out pretty quickly. So Notion is growing like crazy, just just like crazy and people are really hyped about it. And what is really interesting about Notion is that. People like hype about a service or a software, and then it kind of like dies

Mikael Hugg:
Down. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. With the hype dies in

Artem Daniliants:
Internet. Yeah. Nobody has attention for anything anymore, but for no show,

Mikael Hugg:
These very short videos of like 40 minutes. Yes, yes.

Artem Daniliants:
Very short. It's

Mikael Hugg:
Not good for algorithm

Artem Daniliants:
Man. So basically Notion was able to keep the momentum for very long time, and they're not really losing the momentum, which is really rare in our space. They're just killing it, to be honest. There are a lot of features people are still asking for, like in terms of like maybe security offline functionality. But they're killing it, like really, really doing awesome work. And like when you subscribe to the per paid plan, you kind of feel like the more time goes by, the better your plan becomes. So like when you had paid plan, you got AI functionality like, you know, on the top of your existing functionality. I feel, I feel notion is whatever note could have been if Evernote actually did things right?

Mikael Hugg:
Yeah. What, what went wrong there? What went wrong? Because Evernote used to have like huge bus

Artem Daniliants: And no note user name. Well, I use it . I use I use Evernote. Why don't you, you

Mikael Hugg:
Have notion why would, why would he use Evernote?

Artem Daniliants:
No. One thing, one thing that Evernote does that notion doesn't do, and I don't know if any other software does it, so you can just, for example, imagine this, I have a, you know, table scanner documents, scanner that scans documents very quickly, right? You just pulled like 20 documents and it scans them like very quickly. So I just dump that stuff into Evernote. I just put it to Evernote and Evernote automatically scans PDFs. And then later if I want to find something, for example, I want to find a receipt for, I don't know, a computer or something. I don't have to really think like, what was the document? I just can type like what was on the receipt, maybe like, I don't know, like iPhone or, you know, log Logitech mouse or whatever. Yeah. I can type it and it will search from the content of the file, from the pdf, from the docs. Mm-hmm. . And if I draw something, it will also try to do OCR so that it detects my, you know, my handwriting. Yeah. Yeah. And turns it into, So I can find stuff from my handwritten, you know, notes Yeah. And memos and stuff like that.

Mikael Hugg:
Well, well, I've been using adults Ozi there.

Artem Daniliants:
Yeah. But, but I, I think Adobe doesn't doesn't really do like all the formats. I think they do PDF maybe and like images or something. I don't know. But yeah, they, they, they

Mikael Hugg:
Can, they can withdraw data from images. Yeah.

Artem Daniliants:
Yeah. Well, I haven't tried. Again, Evernote is like 50 bucks a year or something. But I think when they tried to redo the application from ground up, they made a lot of people very unhappy. Mm-hmm. because they weren't able to provide functionality parity with the previous version. So they released a new version of applic of application that they thought is better than the original one, but it had less features and it didn't function as well. So people got really disappointed.

Mikael Hugg:
Oh yeah, for sure. You, you, you can never take away features. That's just, yeah. The thing, you know, it's, it's in in, when you, when you're talking about governments it's, it's called dessert benefits, I think in, in English. Ah, and it means that when you have, oh, it's earned benefits. So when you have earned your benefit, you, you, you can't give, give, give it away. So that's the same with apps and tools. When you have features, it's kind of like earned benefit. And then when you're taking them taken away, even though it would be. Not, not even much used, you know, but if you take it away, then it's like, oh, okay, I'm done with this, this app and that. Then that's it.

Artem Daniliants:
Yeah. I, I think, I think there is a, there is a term for it in psychology. It's, it's a version to loss or what not. I don't remember what it is, but basically if somebody gives you one euro, you are like, okay, one Euro great. You don't care much, but if you lose one euro, the loss the hell breaks loose. Feels. Yeah. Yeah. So the, the, the feeling of losing something is a lot more impactful compared to gaining something, especially when we're talking about small things. So, yeah, people went crazy. Like, you know, Evernote got so much hate and I think now the, you know, the company is sold actually to to us a mobile software development company. I think. So there is some potential for Evernote to come back, but I think it would need so much money and, you know, they would have to go back maybe to original version of the application or redo it from scratch. There is, I, I'm not really counting on. But yeah, Evernote could have been notion of today. If they didn't screw up their, you know, development plan and develop development path they just went like totally in the wrong direction. But cool. Again, let's not make this episode longer than it should be. I think we went on a, that was an interesting segue, but.

Mikael Hugg:
20 minutes and now we're like over 40 minutes. Yes. Yeah. But I think the, the good stuff came in the end of this one, so it's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. That is

Artem Daniliants:
Good rambling. It's little bit hard, you know, from us. For sure, for sure. I think. But otherwise, definitely try Miro. Definitely try Notion. and try to mix them together. It's really, really awesome. And I just checked and I think the AI functionality is also part of the free plan. So I think that's pretty cool. So basically better you get, yeah, you get kind of like charge pity, like functionality inside notion. And yeah, let us know what you think in the comments down below. And if you want to see more episodes like this, subscribe and let us. Let you like it, and hey, if you have some other alternatives that we didn't cover or you want us to cover other software or services, just let us know. Thank you, Miguel. This was really, really good. As always. My pleasure. Thank you so much. My pleasure. All right. Bye. Take care. Bye.